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| Ukip's Stuart Agnew MEP (and friends) |
Nick Robinson: 'Tell them again'. That is the slogan of Ukip in the European election campaign. The party insists that they and not Nigel Farage's new Brexit Party are the true defenders of Brexit. Now, Ukip's leader Gerard Batten refuses to appear on the Today programme. One of his MEPs, Stuart Agnew, though has agreed to join us and he's on the line from Norwich. Good morning to you Mr. Agnew.
Stuart Agnew: Yes, hello.
Nick Robinson: What is the point of Ukip without Mr. Farage?
Stuart Agnew: Because we are a political party with and membership and with a set of policies. We are not a one-man band.
Nick Robinson: But there are only four of you left, Ukip MEPs. There are 14 who've joined him in the Brexit Party. You are way behind in the opinion polls. You've lost already, haven't you?
Stuart Agnew: No. A lot of those 14 have not secured places on the Brexit Party's list. I think that's very interesting. Several of them went across to Nigel assuming they'd get high places on the list and they're simply not on the list at all.
Nick Robinson: So you say the difference is that his is not a real party, it's a one-man band. But what about policy though? Is it your claim that Ukip is, for example, more Islamophobic, more worried about what you call the Islamification of Britain, that he is?
Stuart Agnew: We're extremely concerned about it. It is a very, very serious matter. And the Brexit Party doesn't have policies. It is not a membership-based organisation.
Nick Robinson: But you are rather obsessed with Nigel Farage, aren't you? Yesterday Ukip released a video of Mr. Farage with some things that he'd said about Islam saying that the Brexit Party had an anti-Islam agenda. I'm not sure whether you regarded that as a statement of praise or a statement of criticism of Mr. Farage.
Stuart Agnew: I didn't actually hear it so I can't really comment on it...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) But do you say...
Stuart Agnew: Hang on, just hang on...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) No, I'm just asking you your views.
Stuart Agnew: A lot of the MEP's who left us to join Nigel did so because they are unhappy about our stance on Islam.
Nick Robinson: Yes, and I'm not clear whether you think it is a good thing that say that you are more in inverted commas 'anti-Islam', after all your leader has called it a 'death cult'...
Stuart Agnew: (interrupting) And wasn't he right to do that?....
Nick Robinson: And he's called for the...
Stuart Agnew: (interrupting) Wasn't he right to do that?...
Nick Robinson: Let me just finish the question.
Stuart Agnew: No, I'm going to come in here. You used that phrase. He said the word 'death cult. The Sultan of Brunei justified that. The Sultan of Brunei's said, "From now on in this country, in the name of Islam, homosexuals are to be stoned to death"...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) There are people, there are Christians, are there not Mr. Agnew, in certain parts of the world who might share that view? So to describe the whole of a religion or to describe all of their followers as members of a death cult is not merely offensive, it is wrong.
Stuart Agnew: Well, it's pointing out what happens...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) No, no, no, it isn't pointing out what happens...
Stuart Agnew: (interrupting) Stoning people to death happens.
Nick Robinson: ...it's slurring an entire religion and all of its adherents because you don't like the views of some of its adherents.
Stuart Agnew: Well, why didn't they come out...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) Who's 'they'?
Stuart Agnew: ...en masse in this country and say "we thoroughly condemn this"...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) Who is 'they', Mr. Agnew?
Stuart Agnew: The Muslim population of this country. Why didn't they condemn what the Sultan...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) Should Christians go on the street, Mr. Agnew? Do you think we should have organised Christian marches against anti-gay policies throughout Africa? Do you think the Archbishop of Canterbury ought to come out and do that?
Stuart Agnew: No, I don't.
Nick Robinson: But why not? Why is it different for Christians?
Stuart Agnew: Because we are not a proselytising religion. We don't force ourselves on other religions. And also...
Nick Robinson: (interrupting) I don't imagine it feels very different for homosexuals...
Stuart Agnew: (interrupting) Hang on!...
Nick Robinson: ...in many parts of the world.
Stuart Agnew: We adhere to the law. We, as Christians, adhere to the law. We are not trying to create a second legal system in this country, a parallel legal system. That in itself is very worrying. And it's gone further in Germany than it has here. And we look at that and we worry.
Nick Robinson: You worry. I just want to go back to the question which I think you thought I was asking you something I wasn't. Let me just be clear. Are you saying that Ukip is more anti-Islam than Nigel Farage? And if so, are you saying that's a good thing?
Stuart Agnew: I'm saying that we are more concerned about Islam. That's why he left us. And that's the answer.
Nick Robinson: It's the answer about what Ukip now is. It's not essentially a Brexit party...
Stuart Agnew: (interrupting) It is...
Nick Robinson: ...it's an Islamophobic party?
Stuart Agnew: ...first and foremost a Brexit party. And what is more, Gerard Batten was a founder member of Ukip. He is somebody who sees things a long way out. He alone in Ukip two years ago said we should not go down the Article 50 route, it is a trap, it is leaving on their terms. And I said, I'm guilty of saying it, 'Oh come on Gerard! We've signed the Article 50, we're bound to leave." And he was right.
Nick Robinson: Stuart Agnew, thank you very much indeed. And do have a word with Mr. Batten. It might be nice to talk to him on the programme sometime, but he currently refuses to.
Not easy being interviewed aggressively down the phone...but I think I would be inclined to calmly ask Nicholas Anthony Robinson (refer to him as Nicholas throughout, just to wind him up) what part of Sharia law he would like to see introduced in the UK. He won't be able to answer. If he tries to dodge the question, start giving him a list of examples starting with a woman's testimony being worth half a man's and keep asking him if he wants to see that introduced.
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