Trojan Horses

Last night's Newsnight led with the row between Theresa May and Michael Gove over the Trojan Horse affair. After the party politics aspect was dealt with, Jeremy Paxman interviewed Maajid Nawaz, chairman of the Quilliam Foundation, and Ibrahim Hewitt, founder of the Al Aqsa Primary School, about Muslim extremism in schools.

Normally when a softly-spoken social conservative is subjected to sustained interruptions from an aggressive social liberal and when the BBC interviewer conducting the affair not only allows this to happen but even joins in (to some extent), I would instinctively feel a measure of sympathy for the poor social conservative on the receiving end - even if I don't personally share his or her views. 

Not in this case though. 

The social conservative in question was Ibrahim Hewitt, a convert to Islam. Despite repeated challenges to do so, he refused to openly condemn the stoning of adulterers and the chopping-off of thieves' hands. 

He tried hiding behind a quiet, moderate demeanour but Maajid Nawaz and, to a lesser extent, Jeremy Paxman cut through it like a knife through butter - a good thing because, without their sharp questioning, Newsnight viewers might well have found him a sympathetic interviewee and suspected little or nothing of the controversy which surrounds him. 

The Daily Mail describes him as a "Muslim hardliner" and an "Islamic firebrand" "who says [in a book] adulterers should be stoned to death and that gay men and fornicators should be lashed 100 times" and that "a man can take on a second wife if his first fails to satisfy him sexually". The Mail also says that he opposed the setting up of a Holocaust Memorial Day and chairs the "anti-Zionist" charity Interpal ["which the US Treasury has designated a ‘global terrorist entity’ due to accusations it has raised money for the Palestinian terror group Hamas. However, a report by the UK Charity Commission last year found no evidence that it had done so."]

And this man, remember, is the founder and chairman of the trustees of a school in Britain that teaches 250 boys and girls aged between three and 11. 

Just think of that! I think it even bears repeating....

This man is the founder and chairman of the trustees of a school in Britain that teaches 250 boys and girls aged between three and 11. 

A transcription of the interview follows (for posterity's sake):

Jeremy Paxman: Well now, Maajid Nawaz is the chairman of the anti-extremism think tank Quilliam and a Lib Dem parliamentary candidate. With us too is Ibrahim Hewitt, the founder and chairman of trustees of a private Muslim school in Leicester. Is it possible, gentlemen, to define what 'extremism' is?  

Maajid Nawaz: I think essentially, generally, it's the desire to impose one's opinion on anyone else but within the Muslim context we have to accept there is such a thing as extremism. We're calling it 'Islamism' and that in one sentence can be defined as 'the desire to impose any given interpretation of Islam over society by law'.

Jeremy Paxman: How does it manifest itself? 

Maajid Nawaz: Well, the desire to impose Islam over society by law, according to one's interpretation, can manifest itself in cases like we saw in Sudan just last month...this month...where a lady was sentenced for blasphemy, for apostasy.... 

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: Let's just talk about this country. 

Maajid Nawaz: Well, in this country it's segregation in public institutions, sharia patrols walking around in what they have labelled as "Muslim areas". It can define itself in all forms of 'honour killings', FGM. People interpret the religion. It's not the religion itself. It's an extreme or perverted interpretation of the religion.

Jeremy Paxman: Would you accept that definition of extremism?

Ibrahim Hewitt: I think it's an important fact that you mentioned, Jeremy, because this definition has never been actually said by the government. It's very flexible, and that's what causes problems for schools because, on the one hand, we're told to fight extremism, prevent extremism but we're not told actually what it is, and I think you'll find that most Muslims with the community are actually anti-extremism as well because they don't see what they do as being extremism.

Jeremy Paxman: Do you think the government's getting it wrong?

Ibrahim Hewitt: I think they're using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. This reaction in response to what is after all an anonymous letter which has been denounced as a fake by most people...and to come in like this with anti-terror and counter-terrorism...so everything that the Muslims are doing these days, including education, is seen through the lens of anti-terrorism and security.

Maajid Nawaz: We've to to accept though, in our communities, that there is a  challenge that we face that, yes, the vast majority of Muslims aren't violent but we do have to deal with that vocal minority who have come to dominate the discourse of our communities who promote, for example, in an ideal state they want homosexuals to be killed, they promote adulterers and adulteresses to be stoned to death. In an ideal state they call for the amputation of the hand of a thief. And they believe in these things in principle and are calling for them. And then they build what I call the 'mood music to which suicide bombers dance'. There's a reason why we currently have 400 British-born-and-raised citizens fighting for groups far more extreme than al-Qaeda in Syria. It's not an easy thing to leave your country...

Ibrahim Hewitt [interrupting]: But this is...

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: That's just an estimate.

Ibrahim Hewitt: That's another thing. The British government nearly went to fight in Syria {Laughter from Jeremy Paxman}, but the point is that none of this...

Maajid Nawaz [interrupting]: Yes, but they didn't join a group more extreme that al-Qaeda, did it? Come on!...

Ibrahim Hewitt: ...but none of this, Jeremy.... 

Maajid Nawaz: ...You know, this group is beheading members of al-Qaeda.

Jeremy Paxman: This is getting off the point here. 

Ibrahim Hewitt: But the point is none of this is taught in schools. I am confident that  is none of this is taught in schools. It comes from wider community [sic]. It comes from other influences. But within schools I've yet  to met, in thirty years of working in education in Muslim schools and schools with majority-Muslim kids, I've yet to come across any...

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: Would you like to live in a sharia state? 

Ibrahim Hewitt: It depends where it is. I've...

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: You wouldn't like this country to become a sharia state?

Ibrahim Hewitt: I don't think it would. 

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: No, no, would you like it to be?

Ibrahim Hewitt: Obviously I would like to live...

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: You would?

Ibrahim Hewitt:... under sharia.

Jeremy Paxman: And in that you would condone stoning of adulterers, for example?

Ibrahim Hewitt: No, not necessarily. It's a far bigger issue, Jeremy, than this. You cannot just pick and choose bits and bobs of the sharia. It's a very broad issue. Social strata, the circumstances have to be...

Maajid Nawaz [interrupting]: What ifh the sharia conditions for stoning women are met?

Ibrahim Hewitt: This has nothing to do with the education. Let's look at the education... 

Maajid Nawaz [interrupting]: No, but that's what's been taught in schools, so if ..

Ibrahim Hewitt [interrupting]: It's not being taught in schools.

Maajid Nawaz: ...so if the sharia conditions for stoning the adulterer were met...

Ibrahim Hewitt [interrupting]: It's not being taught in schools.

Maajid Nawaz: ...then is that something in principle we should condone?

Ibrahim Hewitt: It's not being taught in schools. You know it's not being taught in schools.

Jeremy Paxman: Do you have any evidence it's being taught in schools?

Maajid Nawaz: So, I've been called, personally, by the teachers. Now I'm not going to comment on the Ofsted report because we've got to wait till the report comes out, so we've got to be careful here because....

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: No, I'm just asking you if you've got any evidence that this is being taught in schools.

Maajid Nawaz: Yes, evidence from the teachers who have called Quilliam directly; however, I don't want to conclude from that evidence. Evidence doesn't mean conclusions. It just means evidence.

Jeremy Paxman: OK. We're not talking about any specific schools here?

Maajid Nawaz: Yes, have to wait for the Ofsted report. But there is a broader issue that we must recognise. Extremism in this country, among Muslims and also among the far-Right, is a challenge  symbiotically they feed into each other - it's a challenge we have to confront. If we cannot sit on 'Newsnight' and openly say that in principle we don't condone the stoning of adulterers or the chopping off of hands in sharia conditions are met anywhere in the world then we've got a problem, because I would condemn that in principle. 

Ibrahim Hewitt: Ah, this is not..this is not where we are. We are hear to discuss...

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: But you do presumably, don't you? You do condemn the amputation of hands and the stoning to death?

Ibrahim Hewitt: If it's not according to a due process of law in any situation, in any...

Maajid Nawaz [interrupting]: So if it's by due processes it's OK to stone people to death?

Ibrahim Hewitt: But the fact is that these things are not taught in schools....

Maajid Nawaz [interrupting]: No Ibrahim, sorry, if done by due process is it OK...

Ibrahim Hewitt: ...I've worked in those schools for thirty years. 

Maajid Nawaz: ...to stone people to death by due process?

Ibrahim Hewitt: ...This things [sic] is not taught in schools. That's what we're here to discuss.

Jeremy Paxman: OK, right. Now you say you have evidence that some extreme views are being taught...

Maajid Nawaz [interrupting]: Which is not a conclusion.

Jeremy Paxman: No, absolutely. I understand that. Is there any evidence that promoting extreme views in schools actually leads to extreme action later of the kind you've already alluded to once?

Maajid Nawaz: Yes, so we've got to treat this very like racism. It's a no-brainer that if racism spreads in society violent racism can emerge from it. Now, we can try and test that scientifically, but most people would accept that racism's spreading in society, even if it doesn't lead to violence, is a bad thing. Likewise with homophobia. If non-violent extremism, like racism and homophobia, from a Muslim context - things like not being able to condone [I think he meant 'condemn' here] stoning people to death - if these ideas spread through society it cannot be good for social cohesion, whether we can empirically test it or not .... 

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: That's a fair point, isn't it?

Ibrahim Hewitt: But what we're looking at here is that in schools it doesn't happen. This comes from internet, all sorts of things...

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: Well he says..no..you heard him say that he's had letters from teachers. The government's worried enough to be mounting investigations...

Ibrahim Hewitt: We were talking just earlier, Maajid and I, about disgruntled people. People who lose their jobs for some reason. They can become vexatious complainants against schools, and it's very easy to do that these days. The fact is that schools generally are there to educate children to get good exam results. The schools in Birmingham...  

Jeremy Paxman [interrupting]: You can't vouch for every school in this country any more than anyone else can!

Ibrahim Hewitt: The schools in Birmingham, which are the focus of this Trojan Horse thing, Jeremy, have gone to 'outstanding' and they've got outstanding exam results....

Maajid Nawaz [interrupting]: But, Ibrahim, I have a son..I have a son... 

Ibrahim Hewitt: ...and all of a sudden...

Maajid Nawaz: I have a son,...

Ibrahim Hewitt: ...all of a sudden...

Maajid Nawaz: ...who's 13, in local....

Ibrahim Hewitt: ..You're not going to allow me to talk? Please Maajid...

Maajid Nawaz: No, I'm asking you...

Ibrahim Hewitt: ...You've had your chance!...

Maajid Nawaz: ...I'm pleading with you for the sake of my sons, 13, who's in a Muslim-only school. I have not choice in that though, because I don't live with him. If his teacher is unable to condemn stoning in principle, not chopping off the hand in principle, I worry for the future of my son. Please set an example as an educationalist and come out and say that you stand on human rights and values, liberal values.

Ibrahim Hewitt [interrupting]: You are right to worry because these things should have no place in school because children don't understand these things. You know as well as I do...

Maajid Nawaz: ...You can't say on national television...

Ibrahim Hewitt: ...that it's a very, very complex issue. It is not black and white. It is what Crispin Blunt mentioned this morning, that when things are put into a black and white situation those who are in the grey area could well be pushed towards the black area and the dark arts. This is something we have to be very careful of. 

Jeremy Paxman: OK, all right. Thank you both very much.