Today's The Emma Barnett Show on BBC Radio 5 Live featured a bust-up between former Trump advisor Sebastian Gorka and the BBC's Emma Barnett.
She "terminated" the interview after just four minutes.
It got off to a bad start for poor Emma when she asked Mr. Gorka if he was a British citizen, clearly in the belief that he was.
Evidently, she was then going to use that 'fact' to spring her pre-prepared 'gotcha' question on him.
Unfortunately for her, Sebastian isn't a British citizen.
She probably should have done some prior research. She could even just have checked Wikipedia, which records the fact that he became a US citizen in 2012.
Evidently, she was then going to use that 'fact' to spring her pre-prepared 'gotcha' question on him.
Unfortunately for her, Sebastian isn't a British citizen.
She probably should have done some prior research. She could even just have checked Wikipedia, which records the fact that he became a US citizen in 2012.
(Not to sound smug, because I only know this because I monitor BBC interviews and have rememberd it, but even I already knew that. And I've never guest-presented Newsnight).
Mr. Gorka then aggressively pushed back on that would-be 'gotcha' question of hers - which she'd ploughed on with and asked anyway!
He mocked lazy BBC 'groupthink'.
He mocked lazy BBC 'groupthink'.
Instead of answering his criticism or making light of it, she got the hump, started sulking and behaved petulantly, deploying several varieties of passive-aggressive behaviour (including heavy irony, self-pity and 'dead airing' her guest).
Sebastian Gorka then made some perfectly sensible points contrasting Mr Trump's and Mr Obama's attitude to the UK - complete with a totally fair parting shot at media double standards on the matter.
Now, Mr. Gorka may or may not have then needed challenging on his claim that Mayor Khan is "a supporter of antisemites" (as they say in exam papers, 'Discuss'), but Emma had her pre-prepared "loser" question and wasn't for dealing with such weighty matters. Instead she persisted with that "loser" question (as she was clearly always going to do).
Sebastian was surely not wrong to react with derision to her claim that she hadn't heard the word "loser" since the playground. That was just plain silly from Our Emma.
By that time Emma had again seriously got the hump with her interviewee (a hump that would have made Quasimodo envious), especially after he called her "churlish".
Not too long after she abruptly brought the interview again and sulked again, getting Tom Newston Dunn to ride to her aid (like a knight to a damsel in distress).
I can't help but think that Andrew Neil would have handled this much better.
Anyhow, here's the transcript:
Emma Barnett: I'm joined now by Sebastian Gorka, former Deputy Assistant to President Trump, now host of a radio show America First and commentator in the US. Welcome to the programme.
Sebastian Gorka: Thank you kindly.
Emma Barnett: You're a British citizen, is that right?
Sebastian Gorka: I'm an American citizen, naturalised, born in the UK.
Emma Barnett: Ah, OK, fine. But in terms of your take on this, last year thousands took to the streets to protest, a YouGov poll suggests up to a million could march in protest this time (expecting the bulk of those to be tomorrow). Does that make you proud of British democracy and freedom of speech?
Sebastian Gorka: It's funny. I was asked the last... that same question exactly the last time Trump visited. I don't know if there's a lack of imagination amongst you and your colleagues. Yes, I am happy with the UK...
Emma Barnett: (interrupting) Well, we've got off to a lovely start! Thanks for the commentary on my questions. Shall we keep going? What's the answer then?
Sebastian Gorka: Would you allow me to continue? Do you just want to interrupt me? [Silence]. Would you like an answer or not?
Emma Barnett: Well, I was leaving silence in hope of one. Do go on! It's called 'banter' in this country, but carry on!
Sebastian Gorka: I thought it was a radio interview, not banter. Banter is what you do down the pub. Look, yes, I'm very happy that the UK is not a dictatorship and that people are allowed to protest things. So, yes, I think that's a good thing. As the mother of democracies I welcome the fact that you're not a totalitarian regime.
Emma Barnett: Thank you. Before even arriving the President waded into...
Sebastian Gorka: (interrupting) You're very welcome.
Emma Barnett: (pausing ostentatiously)...British politics. He talked about Boris Johnson being an excellent candidate for Prime Minister. He talked about it being a mistake not to involve Nigel Farage in the negotiations for our deal leaving the European Union. And he also made comment about the fact that we should be prepared to leave without a deal. Is that right for him to be saying those things?
Sebastian Gorka: I think he has a right to do so. I think it's much better that he says positive things like that. President Obama said if you don't vote the right way and remain in the EU you'll have to get to the back of the queue. So I'd love to know what kind of criticisms and questions you had of people associated with President Obama when he weighted into British politics when he was President. But, yes, I mean, he has a right to make these comments, and the UK has a warm spot in a special place in his heart, and he likes Nigel Farage and he's sympathetic to Boris Johnson. So he made these statements because he believes them.
Emma Barnett: But he's also tweeting that the mayor of the city he's just arrived in is "a loser".
Sebastian Gorka: Well, I agree completely with that. Not only that, he's a supporter of antisemites. Sadiq Khan..
Emma Barnett: (interrupting) I thought you said banter was for the pub. What about when the President tweets that someone's "a loser"?
Sebastian Gorka: That's actually a statement of truth. If you look at the crime rates in London; if you look at the condition of housing, public housing; if you look at the condition of public transport, it's not banter but a statement of facts. Sadiq Khan is probably the worst mayor London has ever had. That's not banter, that's a statement of fact.
Emma Barnett: He didn't say was "the worst mayor", he called him "a loser", which is actually a phrase I haven't heard since I was a playground.
Sebastian Gorka: OK, do you want to do a serious interview or do you want to be churlish?
Emma Barnett: Well, it's serious when you like the point and it's not serious when you dislike the point. So you call me "churlish"...
Sebastian Gorka: (interrupting) It's not serious to say you haven't heard the word "loser" since the playground. That's pathetic. That's just not serious journalism.
Emma Barnett: Sebastian Gorka, thank you very much for your time. I don't think we're going to get...
Sebastian Gorka: (interrupting) You're welcome.
Emma Barnett: ...any further. I'm going to turn to a proper journalist now, someone who's actually just been with the President. If I may talk to Tom Newton Dunn. I had to terminate that. (Words indecipherable). I don't think we were getting any further. You have just been in the Oval Office...
