KW: As you heard there, police have commented on the speed at which Osborne was radicalised. The court heard he had been seeking out far-right material online in the weeks before he carried out his attack. Amongst the material he read and saved were tweets from the man known as Tommy Robinson - the former leader of the English Defence League. I spoke to him a little earlier and I asked him if he accepted any responsibility for the radicalisation of Darren Osborne.
TR: No, of course I don't. I'm actually insulted that you're asking me that. What I can't understand is the narrative from the media this week. All over every news headline is a picture of me. I didn't know this man. I've never met this man. I've never direct-messaged this man, which is a lie that has been put out this week on the media. I can't believe that you've made...
KW: Not on the BBC.
TR: Yes, on the BBC. Today you called me 'alt-right'. That was a lie as well. But all of the media had said I sent him direct messages via Twitter. I never have. That's a lie, a complete lie told to the whole country.
KW: (interrupting) You work for an alt-right organisation. That's the only thing that's fair to say.
TR: No it's not fair to say. No, I don't. I work for a media company in Canada called Rebel Media. Now, the problem I have is that when we're talking about what's radicalised this man, we had 512 people injured and 22 children blown to pieces. We had 48 injured and nine people murdered. We had 49 injured and eight people murdered. We had all of this in a four-week/five-week barrier. And you'd think that what everybody is trying to do is to make it to the fact that Rebel Media sent this man an email inviting him on a silent march. The reason was...
KW: (interrupting) So what he did was, what he did was, and there was evidence that actually he'd been looking you up on the internet quite a lot, and he had looked at and copied tweets - two tweets particularly, and they were on the dashboard. So you tweeted, "Where was the day of rage after the terrorist attacks? All I saw was lighted candles." And the other one is, "Anger. When a Muslim bombed our kids we were told not to look back in anger." What was the purpose of those tweets?
TR: Seriously, can I ask you, you know the first message you've just read, are you going to put up a screen shot of that on your screen? Because you've just completely taken that out of context. What that was was: after Grenfell happened far-left organisations had a day of rage planned. They had leaflets calling for a day or rage. You've got that leaflet because it was part of that tweet. But you've purposely left the leaflet out of it and you're making it sound like I said 'Let's have a day of rage!'. What I was showing people was the hypocrisy in our country that when our children....
KW: (interrupting) ...the situation in this trial...
TR: What you've actually just done is misrepresent the truth of the tweet. That's what you've done on this show, on purpose...
KW: (interrupting) "Anger. When a Muslim bombed our kids we were told not to look back in anger." What was the purpose of that tweet, because that tweet was on the dashboard of Darren Osborne's van when he attacked?
TR: Why are you not sitting here reading...Darren Osborne wrote the reasons why he done this attack. Why are we not talking about the reasons why he done this attack? I'll tell you one of the reasons why he done this attack. What he wrote....
KW: (interrupting) He obsessively looked you up online. That's all I'm saying.
TR: OK, all I'm saying is: he wrote, 'Terrorists march through our country today.' There was an Al Quds march. And the problem I have is you're the BBC News and you did not report on that.
KW: All I'm saying is: do you accept that there is a lot of hate speech about - and you've condemned that from other people, for example Anjem Choudary, who's now in jail. Do you take any responsibility for that being hate speech?
TR: You think that's hate speech?
KW: I'm asking.
TR: No, do you think that's hate speech?
KW: I'm asking you if it's hate speech.
TR: No. Categorically not. It's impossible. You have Muslims in this country, in mosques across this country, calling for the death of homosexuals, calling for the takeover of our country. That's real hate speech. Me saying 'Don't look back in anger', me putting out these tweets, is not hate speech in any way. You're trying to paint me...
KW: (interrupting) Why do you think that he obsessively looked for you online? Because actually it's the case that you were presenting in a way that encouraged him to take action against people.
TR: Absolutely unbelievable that you're saying that. 49 million people watched my videos in that four-week period.
KW: (interrupting) After...
TR: No, excuse me...and 190 million people read my tweets. The reason why people were searching for me is because I give them the truth, unlike you. You're not giving them the truth.
KW: (interrupting) Tommy Robinson, the fact is, after he attacked outside Finsbury Mosque, he wrote a letter and in that letter he actually quoted your tweet. All I'm asking you is...
TR: (interrupting) No he didn't quote my tweets. No, no, no...
KW: ...do you have any responsibility...He did!...
TR: Please, for your viewers....
KW: It was heard in court.
TR: For your viewers...
KW: It was heard in court!
TR: For your viewers, read what he said. I'll tell you what he said. He quoted Sadiq Khan. He said, "just part and parcel of living in a big city". He quoted Jeremy Corbyn...
KW: (interrupting) He quoted you.
TR: No, he didn't quote me.
KW: No, he did. He quoted you and a tweet. He quoted you in his letter. He quoted that tweet. He quoted...
TR: No, he didn't.
KW: ..."Anger. When a Muslim bombed our kids we were told not to look back in anger."
TR: Do you know what that was? No, he said "Don't look back in anger". He didn't say those exact words. He said, "Don't look back in anger". The front page of The Sun newspaper, after the Manchester attack, was "Don't look back in anger". He didn't quote me. He quoted a national newspaper.
KW: (interrupting) Do you, do you deny that he quoted you in any way?
TR: Yes, I completely...no, He gave reasons why he done this...
KW: (interrupting) So he did quote you?
TR: No, he didn't quote me. I can't believe why you're not even looking at the reasons. I can't believe you're not looking at the fact we had three massive terrorist attacks. We have 22,000...
KW: (interrupting) That is not what this is about.
TR: No, this is the reason why he done it. He's told you what it's about...
KW: (interrupting) This is about the rise of right-wing extremists and people being radicalised very quickly online. In court, and indeed the commander of anti-terrorism in the Met....
TR: (interrupting) This is unbelievable. This is unbelievable.
KW: ...said that people are radicalised within four weeks.
TR: I'm embarrassed for the BBC. We had three terrorist attacks in quick succession. Rather than talking about them as a radicalising factor and why this man reacted. He told you why he reacted. You want to put it on the fact that I report the truth.
KW: (interrupting) Excuse me. Can I just say: terrorist attacks are appalling. No one is doubting that. All I'm saying is...
TR: So you don't think the terrorist attacks are anything to do with the reason why he done this? You think it is because I said "Don't look back in anger"?
KW: I am asking, there are contributing factors and he was radicalised online, and the prosecution and the courts...
TR: (interrupting) His wife said...
KW: ...and the police said that he obsessively looked at your...looked for you online and quoted your tweets. That's a fact!
TR: The fact is his wife said he was radicalised after your BBC documentary...
KW: (interrupting) Do you think...what's the difference between the hate speech that you push and the hate speech that Anjem Choudary pushes?
TR:...Why don't you sit the producer of that documentary down here and ask him if he feels responsible?
KW: One final question.
TR: No, you don't.
KW: Is what Darren Osborne did appalling and reprehensible?
TR: Of course it is. What sort of silly question is that? He's mowed down innocent people walking down the street. But also what the BBC is doing is irresponsible and disgusting as a media outlet.
KW: Thank you very much indeed.
Kirsty going full Cathy.
ReplyDeleteNever go full Cathy, Kirsty.