Monday 18 November 2019

Not another one! (Bumped again!)

Bumped again! (Hope that’s ok with you Craig) because Ms Carroll’s behaviour has "attracted" the BBC, if not necessarily their scrutiny.

Being scrupulously impartial,  the BBC is keen to put her side of the story. Oh, wait, it seems to have forgotten to include the rest of it.  

(From Private Eye)

Oh well, not to worry. You can get it here: 

Bumped, from first thing this morning, back to the top of the blog for those who like a  debate (see the thread below)...

The Mail on Sunday reports that Maria Carroll, Labour's Corbynite candidate in Carmarthen East, ran a secret Facebook group (the 'Labour Party Compliance: Suspensions, Expulsions, Rejections Co-Op’) advising members accused of antisemitism how to escape expulsion, including members who cast doubt on the Holocaust and promoted antisemitic tropes. There's lot of damning detail in the piece. 

Lord John Mann, until the election MP for Bassetlaw, has tweeted, "Labour candidate ran secret group advising party 'Holocaust deniers'. This is on a deferent level. All those involved need suspending and none are fit to be candidates and need to have Labour endorsement removed today."

Will Ms Carroll's behaviour attract the BBC's scrutiny?


  1. What rubbish ...

    That group was set up in 2016 to assist suspended members through the investigation process by helping to write letters of appeal, make subject access requests and prepare documents for the hearing.
    In the UK a person is innocent until proven guilty, were that not the case, anyone could be accused of anything with no recourse.
    Do solicitors, barristers or paralegals get hounded for representing people accused of something? No they do not.
    Irrespective of what the accused were ultimately found to have done by the National Constitutional Committee, that does not mean that they are not entitled to assistance during the investigation process.
    I hope Maria Carroll reports the journalist to IPSO for breaching the editors code on accuracy.

  2. But unfortunately this is is set against a background, from the travesty of the Chakrabarti enquiry onwards, of Labour trying to get themselves off the the hook rather than actually tackling anti-Semitism. The fact is that anti-Semitism in Labour in endemic. These individuals who apparently have no recourse other than this Facebook group are just the the tip of a very nasty iceberg.

  3. Well Maria Carroll was not a PPC at the time she was on that group.
    If a lawyer represented a burglar would you then accuse the lawyer of also being a burglar... of course you wouldn't.
    Irrespective of the allegation a person is innocent until presumed guilty. There can be nothing wrong with helping a person write an appeal letter (as they are allowed to do in response to the allegation)
    Imagine if you were in work and a colleauge accused you of something, you may be suspended whilst the investigation is in progress, but you would expect assistance from your union (if you were in one)
    Once the investigation is completed, if you are found guilty of that which you are accused then you of course accept the consequences

    1. re 'what rubbish' Someone has Tweeted your comment to John Mann.

      Being suspended from the Labour Party is hardly of the same magnitude as being convicted in a court of law. Ms Carroll doesn’t appear to be a lawyer and the ‘closed’ Facebook group is an unconventional vehicle for coaching people to wriggle out of accusations of antisemitism in this weaselly and disingenuous manner, especially when they’re plainly guilty.
      Your final suggestion about reporting the journalist negates any semblance of a point your “innocent until proven guilty" remark might have had.

    2. re 'what rubbish' Someone has Tweeted your comment to John Mann.... so what if they did.

      I didnt say Ms Carroll was a lawyer, what I did say was that an allegation is not a presumption of guilt and the accused person is entitled to assistance by making an appeal (which is their right) or making a subject access request under s7 DPA also their right. as a previous trade union rep Ms Carroll is knowledgable about the procedures as the BBC article acknowledges she did not make any antisemitic comments

    3. Oh and as for the grouo being secret, 2 reasons:- some of the people suspended who were on the group had mental health issues, some were under 18 so there were safeguarding issues.
      When a person is suspended, they are advised by the Labour Party that the investigation is confidential and they are not to disclose details, so the secret status of the group complies with that requirement.
      The group was not specifically set up to deal with antisemitism, it was set up purely to help those who were suspended and being investigated for whatever reason, to navigate the investigation process.

  4. A thread from the lady herself:

    1/ Thread on today’s story about me in the Daily Mail:

    2/ I never saw these horrific antisemitic social media posts from Alan Bull or Sue Grant. These posts were not made in the Facebook group I was in and if I had seen them, I would have immediately condemned them and called them out.

    3/ The only interaction I had with either was when someone contacted me on Alan Bull’s behalf, and I said he should delete posts about being investigated by the Party, because of confidentiality rules. I hadn’t seen his antisemitism. He was rightly kicked out of the group.

    4/ I’ve been an outspoken critic of antisemitism in our Party, including calling out antisemitic abuse towards Luciana Berger and antisemitism denialism within our Party. I’ve been blocked by antisemitic accounts as a result. I have posted evidence about this below.

    5/ joined that group when leftwing members were being suspended from the Labour Party en masse to stop them voting in the 2016 Labour leadership election, for incidents such as retweeting Caroline Lucas. When I noticed the group begin to focus on antisemitism I left it.

    6/ After the Panorama documentary, I said that those dismissing antisemitism or tweeting about “foreign agents” should leave our Party.

    7/ In August last year, I tweeted back to those denying the existence of antisemitism in the Labour Party and asked them to listen to the Labour leadership who have made clear that it exists.

    8/ In 2016, I tweeted in solidarity with Luciana Berger against the incredible abuse she has faced.

    9/ I acknowledged that our complaints process was too slow to deal with antisemitism complaints, and that we have let down the Jewish community.

    10/ And that our failure to act on complaints has caused anxiety to the Jewish community.

    11/ Last summer, I tweeted about how I have learnt so much about antisemitism through the crisis in the Labour Party and much of that has been by learning from the Jewish community on Twitter.

    12/ I am one of many blocked by Labour Left Voice for actively opposing antisemitism.

    13/ And I have praised the work of the CST. And the Board of Deputies.

    14/ I am distraught by todays article and the dishonest light it paints me in My Dad fought in WW2 helping to liberate Auschwitz, and suffered mentally for the rest of his life. I’ve always been aware of the devastating consequences of antisemitism and will always fight this evil.

  5. From that...

    It's good that she's acknowledging that there's a massive problem of antisemitism in the Labour Party - though she's still excusing the leadership.

    And it's good that she recognises and opposes rampant 'denialism' about antisemitism in the party. We could do with much more of that from other Labour candidates, and from the leadership. And from Corbyn supporters in general.

    And it's reassuring that she was appalled at the antisemitic treatment of Luciana Berger by elements in her party, and that she complained about it. It was disgusting. And many Corbynist supporters on Twitter denied it and mocked it.

    And that being blocked by Labour antisemitic sites speaks to her credit too.

    Her account of joining a left-wing, pro-Corbyn group and then leaving it when it turned antisemitic is very revealing. It would be good if the BBC took that story up. It could be very interesting.

    She also says she defended 'Panorama' - the John Ware one I presume - over the programme's devastating critique of Labour antisemitism. Good on her.

    And her condemnation of her own party for dealing with complaints about antisemitism too slowly is decent, as is her strong statement that Labour let the Jewish community down by so doing. They certainly did.

    Being blocked by Labour Left Voice and praising the work of the CST and the Board of Deputies is good too. Hopefully, Jeremy Corbyn will follow her lead.

    Her heartfelt rejection of antisemitism and her commitment to fight that evil is excellent. All she now needs to do is to denounce the antisemites in the Labour leadership, strongly criticise Jeremy Corbyn and make the only protest that really matters and stand down as a Labour candidate until Jeremy Corbyn resigns and Labour chucks out every antisemite they can find, without equivocation or delay.


    1. It's good that the BBC got round to reporting this- albeit only after Labour issued its 'dismissal' of charges of antisemitism against Ms Carroll.

      The BBC report leads with the Labour 'dismissal' and then quotes Ms Carroll and the Labour Party in support of Labour's 'dismissal'.

      Its quotes are all from one side - the pro-Labour side (Ms Carroll/the Welsh Labour leader/a Labour 'source').

      It does quote a few of Ms Carroll's criticism of Labour antisemitism, but doesn't lay anywhere near the full extent of her blasts against it - as listed above.

      It would be good if the BBC interviews her and goes through the thread she posted on Twitter, post by post. I doubt they will, but you can only live in hope, GeeBee.

    2. The group run by Maria Carroll was known as: ”Labour Party Compliance: Suspensions, Expulsions, Rejections Co-Op”

      Sorry, but if Maria Carroll was genuinely motivated to hand out (quasi) legal advice to people she believed were being falsely or unfairly accused of antisemitism (or any similar offence) surely the first thing she’d do is to check out what people like Mollie Collins, Alan Bull, Sue Grant had been accused of.

      “Carroll advised Alan Bull, a candidate for Peterborough Council, who in 2015 posted an article claiming that the Holocaust was a "hoax," to delete all his posts on social media.”

      She said “she was not aware of these statements by Bull and Collins, otherwise she would have condemned them.”

      She must have been supremely incurious to have missed the Holocaust denial etc., it wasn’t difficult to find out
      All those excuses came too late - only after she’d been ‘outed’.

      Holocaust denial is unbecoming - and if she wasn’t so polite she’d probably be kicking herself for being too honourable

    3. You clearly do not understand.

      Might help if you read this ...(as far as I'm concerned, Maria Carroll is owed an apology as well as damages as tangible recognition of the upset caused to her)

    4. I’m afraid that by now this thread is as dead as the proverbial parrot and I don’t think it’s apt to bump it again, but for what it’s worth, I’ll respond here.

      Thanks for the interesting link, which does indeed shed more light on the situation.

      I’m glad Steve Cooke, who seems a reasonable and plausible chap (despite being a fan of Momentum’s Jon Lansman) took David Collier’s intervention seriously and didn’t respond with the usual reflexive malice.

      As I said, Maria Carroll effectively took on a role, which entailed a duty to scrutinise (check out) the veracity of those accusations. She should have done so. As Steve Cooke states:

      “4/ As a union rep, I advise members in trouble regardless of their alleged offence, though I have a duty to tell them it straight if I find they actually have committed misconduct.”

      I am willing to accept that Steve Cooke wants to support a colleague, but I’d need more than “(but not, to my knowledge, Maria)” and references to her in his tweets (Nos 14 and 15) as evidence of her innocence/ignorance.

      Here’s the actual thread as opposed to the Thread Reader excerpt, and you’ll note Huster’s reply as well as other equally damning messages.

      If Maria Carroll deserves an apology, it’s from the Labour Party (for throwing her under the bus or making her the scapegoat for their egregious racism as defined by Steve Cooke.)

      Personally, I don’t know if malevolence, ignorance or incompetence was behind Maria’s behaviour, and I think she now has to accept that ‘it is what it is’ and ‘move on’.

    5. Well I don't agree I'm afraid.
      The facebook group wasn't some large limited company, it consisted of a couple of admins who all had jobs, other commitments such as caring responsibilities.
      Some basic verification of the person who wanted to join was undertaken, you'll have noticed I'm sure that some of Alan Bulls posts go back a couple of years and with over a 1000 members on that group, you'd have needed someone doing deep mining verification checks on a full time basis.

      The group was set up to help suspended members navigate the investigation process as there was absolutely no support available to them and as I've said before an allegation made is not a presumption of guilt. It is easy to be wise after the event if a person is ultimately found guilty of that which they are accused of.
      It must also be remembered that the person suspended was given minimal evidence of what they were supposed to have done wrong.
      I understand that this has now improved and the party do provide copies of offensive tweets etc and the person is asked in detail about them.

  7. Are some of you being too kind to Maria Carroll?

    She - like many Corbynistas - has our free press in her sights. This is from one of her tweets:

    "How very dare you Daily Mail.

    I can’t wait for a labour government that will transform this country’s transport system

    And transform our media.

    Making it a free press as it should be not the vehicle of the views of the rich at our expense."

    Of course you have to translate from the Leftist doublespeak. "Free press" means an unfree, controlled press: government regulation, imposition of NUJ style codes and censorship of relevant news on matters such as anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

    I frankly don't trust her and don't accept her explanation of what she's been up to. Are we really supposed to believe such a politicised person did not understand what anti-semitism is? Is it credible that she has "learnt so much about antisemitism through the crisis in the Labour Party and much of that has been by learning from the Jewish community on Twitter"? Or, is it more likely that (through her slavish adherence to the Corbynista Line) she realised last year that the line had changed from bold refusal to admit there was a problem to a devious pretence that the problem was accepted and was now being properly addressed?

  8. Can anyone confirm what Carroll was referring to here?:

    She writes: "this symbol fills me with horror". The tweets seem to be discussing the Star of David.

    Is she saying the Star of David fills her with horror?

    It's difficult to follow entirely her line of argument...I've noticed she has a tendency to post (usefully, to her) ambiguous statements.

    She claims that her father was involved in the liberation of Auschwitz. As various tweets ask - was he in the Red Army then? She hasn't clarified. Earlier she claimed in a tweet that she was the child of a survivor of Nazi atrocities...

    1. I'm struggling to make sense of that thread of hers. It does seem that she's referring to the Star of David, but that doesn't make sense - well, it doesn't make sense to someone who isn't an antisemite. What other symbol could she be referring to though? The more I read it the more I think she is talking about the Star of David.

    2. She claims that her father was involved in the liberation of Auschwitz.
      Yes and Jeremy Corbyn’s mother participated in the Battle of Cable Street; and my old man’s a dustman

    3. "Jeremy Corbyn’s mother participated in the Battle of Cable Street". I'm tempted to ask "On which side?" ...because the answer might explain a lot.

  9. Well it seems very, very clear that she knew her FB forum was being used to spread anti-semitic propaganda but she nevertheless continued with it for best part of year afterwards.


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